Firstly, I want to acknowledge that Gilbert is a good guy - his charity Transitioning.org has down a lot for Singaporeans who are between jobs and I know his heart is in the right place. I do not know him and have not met him, but I do know some people who do know him and they assure me that whilst he's not the most articulate guy (he often puts his foot in his mouth), he has down a lot to help strangers who have no one else to turn to. Okay, so let's all try to remember that whilst we deal with this terrible piece he wrote.
There are men who are single and do not settle down in any country in the world, not just Singapore - why should we assume that every single adult must get married and have children by a certain age? Some people do and others don't - and for those who don't, there could be a range of factors. Maybe they just haven't met the right person yet, maybe they refuse to compromise and settle for second best, maybe they are just not prepared or ready to have a family. But to blame one's financial situation for not being able to find love is just so incredibly wrong on so many levels.
There is a huge difference between finding love and settling down - if all you want to do to is settle down, all you have to do is lower your standards and compromise. Lower your standards enough and you can easily find a spouse - but guess what? Some of us do not want to go down that route - what is the point of settling for a relationship like that just to get married when you're hardly head over heels in love with the person you're marrying?
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| Have you found true love in your life? |
We live in a meritocratic society - those who work hard will get ahead in life and this is when I am going to bring out my favourite IQ bell curve. This is a fact of life - some of us are simply more intelligent and talented than others, life is a bitch. Life isn't fair. What were you expecting Gilbert? For everyone to make it to university and become rich? What planet do you live on Gilbert? Not everyone is capable of making it to university and become graduates - we're not all clones from the same factory with exactly the same abilities. Some men will do very well, others won't and there's everything in between. That was the case in Singapore back in the 1980s even before this influx of FTs.
Whose fault is it when you don't do well in life - when you fail to get a good job or fail to find love? You know you can spend the rest of your life blaming the government, blaming your parents, blaming society, blaming everything under the sun - but I have a simple solution when I mess up in life. I blame myself. That's right. The first person I blame is myself. When I fuck up, I would be the first to put my hand up and accept responsibility - why? Because this empowers me, this allows me to start analyzing where I had gone wrong, I can then look at how I can make amends and avoid making that situation again. I learn and grow from that mistake - thus I turn every fuck up into an opportunity to learn and grow. What is the alternative then? Become a bitter and twister "victim"?
I really hate the way Gilbert just plays the victim's card on behalf of Singaporean men - yeah yeah, he is always blaming someone else. Blame the FTs, blame the PAP, blame the government and now he is blaming Singaporean women. Sudah cukup lah aiyoh, it's a broken record Gilbert and a stupid one. Enough already. Who wants to marry a loser who blames everyone else but himself? It's not the nationality dude, it's the attitude that matters.
As for the ghastly picture he paints of Singaporean women, good grief. Good fucking grief Gilbert. If you really wanted to offend Singaporean women, then congratulations - judging from what I've seen on social media today, you've well and truly succeeded. It is ridiculous the way Gilbert spoke of Singaporean women as if they were a monolithic entity - there is a whole range of attitudes amongst Singaporean women. Some Singaporean women are extremely successful in their careers, others can't find a job and there's everything in between.
And if a Singaporean woman wants to date a white guy, what the hell is wrong with that Gilbert? Are you that narrow minded about that issue? And in any case, even if someone does marry someone from another country - I say, good luck to them and I hope they're happy. What has that got to do with you? It is really none of your business. Besides, marrying someone from the same culture or country is no guarantee that you will have the right chemistry for love to blossom. You're not looking for the perfect flatmate - you're looking for love. It is something so unique and special that happens when two people feel something for each other. Let me share a story I have told before on my blog.
Did she admit she was wrong? No. She went out of her way to make life hell for my mother as she didn't like Hokkien people. That's another story for another day - but I would have liked to have thought that this kind of attitude died with my late grandmother years ago. But oh no, Gilbert believes that we should all marry someone local because according to him, "its unsure how inter-cultural marriages fare as many of them ended up in divorce. Marriages from different nationalities tend to struggle more as there are obvious initial adjustment due to the difference in culture and behaviour of the couple." That sounds like something an ignorant person might have said back in the 1970s.
Did Gilbert think that those of us who were raised in Singapore are oh so incredibly Asian that we're unable to deal with white people? Let me put this to you: I was born and bred in Ang Mo Kio and today, I speak Mandarin as a third language. That's right, I am a total banana and my French is better than my Mandarin today despite coming from a Hokkien-Mandarin speaking family. I have spent half my life in Europe and the Middle East and have never ever had any problems with people from other cultures because I am so not Singaporean to begin with - I have a very international cultural identity that is neither Asian or Western, but my ability to speak so many languages (I speak 7 languages confidently) allows me to transcend traditional cultural pigeonholes.
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| I'm from Ang Mo Kio and I feel so at home in Europe. |
Furthermore, we live in the age of the internet - the way our culture identities are shaped in this day and age is so different from our parents' generation. Back in the 1980s, my parents read the Straits Times and mostly enjoyed SBC drama serials on channel 8 - they wouldn't even read an American magazine and could probably count on one hand how many English-language movies they watched in the 1980s. Let's contrast that to today, we live in the age of Twitter, Youtube and Facebook - where Psy's Gangnam Style can take the whole world by storm. The way we consume culture has changed so radically and so have our cultural identities.
Let me give you an example: I found out about the Norwegian Youtube Meme "The Fox" by Ylvis via a Canadian couple who live in South Korea because they talked about it on their vlog. That's how information about culture is shared through the internet and I've totally fallen in love with the music video because I can identify with the sense of humour used in the video, mocking the genre of pop stars who take themselves so seriously. This sense of humour is not culture specific, but something that anyone can relate to if they understand the parody - otherwise it's just a bunch of Norwegian guys singing a song about the sound a fox makes. A-oo-oo-oo-ooo!
And as for Gilbert, I've heard the way he speak. Sorry, make that, I've heard the way he has mangled the English language and struggled with it. Gilbert has serious problems trying to express himself with the English language. Just because you can't bloody speak English doesn't mean that the rest of us who were brought up in Singapore struggle with English as much as you do - actually, some of us do speak English pretty darn well and do not have a chip on our shoulders about conversing confidently in English without a really thick Chinese accent the way Gilbert does. Gilbert, your English sucks - mine doesn't, so please don't assume that I face the same problems that you do.
Let me give you an example: I found out about the Norwegian Youtube Meme "The Fox" by Ylvis via a Canadian couple who live in South Korea because they talked about it on their vlog. That's how information about culture is shared through the internet and I've totally fallen in love with the music video because I can identify with the sense of humour used in the video, mocking the genre of pop stars who take themselves so seriously. This sense of humour is not culture specific, but something that anyone can relate to if they understand the parody - otherwise it's just a bunch of Norwegian guys singing a song about the sound a fox makes. A-oo-oo-oo-ooo!
Let's just look at what Gilbert said about this issue, "our women folks also find that ang mohs are better at making conversation maybe due to their mastery of the English language and they are also more gentlemanly in their behaviour." Okay people. Let's lighten up with Psy's music video before we get too angry...
It gets worse. About the white expatriates, Gilbert claims, "they are well educated because of the lax educational entry system in their country". What the fuck Gilbert? Whilst it is true that Singaporean parents tend to make their children work a lot harder than their counterparts in the West, the lazy kids in the West are not the ones who make it into the top universities. We simply have more universities than you do in Singapore. We have a total of 130 universities in the UK. A lazy student with below average grades will only be able to gain a place in a Mickey Mouse university in the lower half of the league table. If you want to read law at Oxford, UCL or Cambridge, you are going to have to work bloody hard in order to outshine the competition from all over the world. There are no shortcuts.
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| Can you get into Oxford without studying ridiculously hard? |
As for the white expats in Singapore, listen these people are likely to be pretty well educated and highly skilled in order to get a nice job in Singapore. Those without degrees (or with crap degrees) are far more likely to be stuck in their own countries doing jobs that are not very well paid. Thus the white expats you encounter in Singapore are very different from those I encounter in the UK because you only see those who are rich and successful whilst I see the full section of society from rich to poor here in London. There are plenty of white people who are not well educated here in the UK and they'll never be able to get one of those nice expat jobs in Singapore.
The thing that disturbs me most (and offends me most) about Gilbert's attitude is this, in his own words, "The only problem is they are not choosing it from their own local pool!" Why oh why is he so fixated with Singaporeans marrying other Singaporeans "from their own local pool"? After all, haven't our ancestors come from different parts of China, Malaysia, Indonesia, India and further afield? Most Singaporeans are only third or fourth generation Singaporeans - many of us actually do have at least one grandparent who was not born on the island of Singapore.
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| What lies in your DNA? |
I only have one grandparent who was born in Singapore and the other three were born in China - yet when I had my DNA analysed last year, I found out that I am Eurasian rather than Chinese. What is in my gene pool? This made me very interested in my ancestry and I started doing research into my lineage for the first time in my life and it led me to discover a very interesting path of discovery to try to find out where that European blood may have come from. My maternal grandparent was adopted and my paternal grandmother was betrothed at a very young age (ie. she lived with my grandfather's family from the time she was a young child, as her birth parents were way too poor to raise her on their own) - so it could have been either of them and unfortunately, we don't have any information on their birth parents but it was through one of them that I have obtained my European blood.
This journey of discovery made me think about who I am, who my ancestors were, how I got to where I am and the bigger context of what makes me the person I am - for example, I have always been teased for having a big nose when I was in primary school and now it all makes sense why I have a nose that is much bigger than your average Chinese nose. "Your nose so big for what? You want to breathe more air izzit? You're Pinnocchio!!"
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| Me and my big nose |
Has Gilbert failed to see the wider picture is when he talks about "from their own local pool"? Singaporeans are a product of a complex movement of immigrants from so many countries across the world to this little island - that is the context of how we came to be born in Singapore. I am sure many other Singaporeans who have bothered looking into their ancestry will have stories that are as interesting as mine to tell - this local poor is hardly Singaporean per se, but the sum total of our ancestors' journeys and choices, often involving marrying someone from another culture and/or moving to another country. Is Gilbert conveniently ignoring all that Singaporean history?
Gilbert has well and truly spoken out of turn here - I don't know what he is trying to achieve, did he expect a chorus of older Singaporean men to agree with him and applaud him for this article? Did he expect Singaporean women to hang their heads in shame after reading his article? Well, right now, Singaporean women are condemning him for being a male chauvinist and most Singaporean men are like, "woah, you're not our spokesman, please don't try to speak on our behalf." At the very least, he does seem totally out of touch with the way our modern society has evolved - his mindset seems pretty much stuck in the pre-internet era of the 1980s. Wake up Gilbert, it's 2013. What really does piss me off about Gilbert is his willingness to play the victim's card on behalf of others. Speak for yourself. Don't speak on behalf of others and certainly don't try to play the victim's card on their behalf.
Duh. Leave a comment please, cheers.
http://i.imgur.com/8JvRYF8.jpg
ReplyDeleteThis is the reason I don't frequent that website. Too much noise of the lowest common denominator.
Dear Limpeh, your remarks about Gilbert Goh seems to strike a chord with me on various counts. As a person, I actually dislike Gilbert Goh(yes, being honest here). Never mind that he wants to help jobless people, and never mind that he is trying to fight for revisions of the current policies in Singapore. He is guilty of a lot of various things, especially what you called 'putting one's foot in the mouth'. Let me recount a few episodes to you.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, when I was still job-hunting post-graduation from my PhD (before I eventually got the job offer here in Japan here as you know), Gilbert Goh had referred me to a few other people in terms of career counselling. Fair enough, that was helping me. But when I stated later on that I was contemplating an offer from a mainland Chinese university's English program to teach ESL there, something cropped up. He assumed straightaway that I would find a PRC girl and settle down with her, and asked me what I think of PRC girls. I just said honestly, "I do not really care much for PRC girls, and I do not like them much personally." (I meant attraction) He registered shock. Then again, months later, when he was soliciting interviews for his website, he asked me again for an interview. At that point in time, he had assumed straightaway that I was in Tokyo, when I was not at all, and constantly 'yakked' yada yada nonstop about how it is 'shiok' that I am in Tokyo, and that I should find a Japanese wife, because (quote and unquote) "Japanese women are submissive and good in bed". I have absolutely no idea where he got all that information from because it is simply untrue. At that point in time, as far as I know, he was going through a divorce with his Singaporean wife who now lives in Sydney with his daughter. The divorce or separation proceedings probably took a toll on his mind and outlook towards people. He turned really mean on me, and did an ad hominem attack on me, stating that I "write badly for a PhD" (hahahaha...this got a barrage of comments from readers on his blog, one of whom stated upfront that Gilbert Goh himself is a bad writer, and has absolutely no grounds for attacking someone who got his PhD degree from a recognized top Canadian research university). Of course, he barked up the wrong tree, because all his remarks were badly written. I posted the original and edited versions of his reply to me in the comments section of his blog, which he proceeded to remove after a few hours--probably out of guilt or an attempt to deny what went on.
Someone like Gilbert Goh who directs his frustrations in the sexual and romantic department should seriously consider keeping his big mouth shut, as much as he might want to be a good soul and help Singaporeans in other aspects. Fancy blaming Singaporean women for what you are going through financially??!! Give me a break for the love of God! Yes, there might be terrible Singaporean women, but they are no different from terrible women elsewhere in other races. People are people, and what was he thinking? Even as someone who is partial to dating Korean and Caucasian women in general, I do not think that it is necessarily a case of "greener pastures" out of Singapore, and neither is it wrong to date someone from another race, culture or nationality. It is ironic that for someone who had a bad experience in his marriage to a Singaporean, he would be so averse to the idea of Singaporean men dating 'foreign' women...is he becoming racist or what?
Well Kev, to answer your last question. He is guilty of not being able to see things from another person's POV. My Hakka grandmother objected to my dad marrying my Hokkien mother because of her anti-Hokkien prejudice and it didn't help that my mother didn't speak Hakka and my grandmother didn't speak Hokkien. My grandmother was oblivious to the fact that my parents share plenty of languages in common (Mandarin, Hokkien, Singlish and Malay) and have no problems communicating and it was my grandmother who couldn't communicate with my mother rather than my dad. Yet my grandmother went out of her way to prevent my dad's marriage and hated my mother for so many years - why? Because she just failed to see how well my parents communicated in their mish mash of Hokkien-Mandarin-Malay-Singlish ...
DeletePeople like Gilbert & my late grandmother think that the whole world must think and feel the way they do about the issue. It's called imaging that the world revolves around you.
I do think that you will agree with this about Gilbert Goh. He is not the only one in Singapore who thinks of the idea of 'contamination' or 'miscegenation' of the 'pure' Singaporean race or heritage via intercultural marriage or dating, and he will not be the last one either. I have read a few online remarks made by some rather silly Singaporean men, including one which lamented that Singapore women are dating foreign men, and hence causing the direct pool of women he can date from to be reduced. Obviously, I think that this will unleash a backlash, and sure enough, on Melissa(that aspiring filmmaker's blog, Asian Gone Wrong), she lambasted that guy deservedly with the comment that it is this kind of guy who complains so much but votes for the same government day in and day out, who does not deserve sympathy. Plus, why cannot these people learn to see that intercultural dating and marriage is in actuality an expanding of one's field of girls(or women) to pick from?
DeleteWell, Kev, I so wanna write a post to address this issue (but it's 12:25 am now) - I would like to address this issue in a very academic way without paying heed to what Gilbert Goh (or anyone said) after all, it is a simple analysis of what changed in terms of the socio-economic factors that has led to this - and I could give it a geography/sociology essay treatment for the factors that led to these are pretty clear, there are no hidden factors or secrets. For example, women are far better educated than a generation ago and that's a good thing. Congratulations to the government and the MOE for that. It all boils down to factors like that - look out for that post later in the week.
DeleteThanks for your post. it's great!
ReplyDeleteI think Gilbert tried to link education/men/women/local/political issues but ended up with a plate of revolting rojak.
The part on university education is a typical example of Gilbert's narrowed views that a straight route to success is via university education (that's what the secondary school teachers peached!!!). We know that is not true. We take responsibility of the life we live, despite whatever education we had. Having a degree have yet to stop a woman from becoming a girlfriend/wife/mother/worker, and not having a degree does not mean one is naturally the wife material.
If anyone does not want a degree badly enough, they will not spend a second or a cent in pursuing that (Glibert, you know lah). I have many friends who would spend their resources on ciggies/drinks/entertainment rather than to go for a cert. Nothing is wrong in that, they know what they want and will not whinge about not having a degree at all.
I work full-time in an MNC and i wear high heels and smart dresses to work daily. If I may speak for all the women in Singapore, I am no different from another woman who wears t-shirts/jeans/bermudas and flipflops to work in a canteen, as we are just trying to earn a salary which goes to paying household expenses.
职位不分尊卑只要努力去做就是成功.
If Gilbert is so envious, he should wear my heels/makeup and dress to work daily, and tell me how he can see pride in doing something that hurts your feet and takes your time!
My husband drives the family car and I take a cab to work daily. When I drive, people around will exclaim 'wah ah girl, you can drive ah, have a car somemore wor!!!', and matched that with a bewildered look! Seriously, I do think in Singapore, some people are living in stone age, and dear Glibert has just verified that, if you know what i meant.
My work environment is full of Ang Mohs, hey, Gilbert has to be surprised if he knows that I married a local Chinese guy (I'm Chinese) who spent a few years in UK for his degree. The generalizations has to stop. People who studied overseas can chose to return to Singapore and women like me, despite seeing Ang Mohs daily for 8 hours/5day/per week, still loves my husband to bits for his Singlish,our common interests in local jokes and his indifference to my demands for more household allowances!
Afterall, love knows no boundaries/languages/cultural differences.
Reading Gilbert's post has left me very disturbed.
A word of advice for Gilbert, you should spend the time working on yourself, rather than trying to identify and address relationship issues.
Thanks for your comment Smokey Eyes. You're right - Gilbert's trying to correlate too many issues and ignoring the fact that our society is evolving so quickly in terms of our cultural identity in the age of the internet and some younger people have totally embraced this new technology in their lives whilst older folk may use the technology but do not allow it to mould them the same way. I think it's a generation gap issue and unfortunately for Gilbert, he's on the wrong side of that gap.
DeleteOh dear. As an ex-Singapore woman, I have to say that the local men are quite unattractive as lovers. The expat angmohs are more attractive. Also, they are more interesting. Remember that most of these expats are educated as well. The Ah Bengs are just too insecure. The brown men have mother issues. The Malays --- unless you are ready to convert, don't even bother. I never found local men attractive as lovers.When I came to Canada, I met all kinds of Cauasians. The eye-candies and the idiots as well. Guess what? I married a brown ex-Singaporean with major mother issues! Karma is a bitch. Lol! Now, about the Singaporean women --- yes, they love money, and many are vapid and insipid. They want to have the Pradas and the $16000.00 Hermes purses. They also want to be worshipped and glorified. If they think the angmohs will do that, they are quite sorely mistaken. The local men are better off with the China imports. They are way less maintenance. Hey, this is my take.
ReplyDeleteHi Di. I say local men have to take more responsibility for their love lives - Gilbert claims that Angmohs speak English better and are more gentlemanly....so? Can a Singaporean man speak English just as well (of course - it depends on his education and the Singaporean education system is pretty darn good) and can a Singaporean man have good manners and treat a lady with respect? Again, that's only too obvious - of course they can and yes there are plenty of Singaporean men who have fine manners (and would be offended by Gilbert's assumption).
DeleteI think Gilbert was just trying to point out an increasing social trend. Singapore women are more attracted to angmohs. Nothing wrong with that. Yes, you are right, Alex. The local men have to ask themselves why. Just I think many local women are too focused on money and the 5Cs. Many men are too dependent and too insecure, Bottom line, if local men want local women that much, they should do something about themselves. Make themselves more interesting and attractive to the local women. Also, they might want to lower their standards. Surely not all local women are ready to snare an angmoh. I am sure there are many lovely local women there who are sighing and wondering why the local men like Gilbert are such uninteresting idiots. Singapore men: make yourself more interesting, please. Read up, dress up, speak up, and go get yourself a local woman, Singapore women: yes, you! You with your high expectations and maintenance --- get off your high horse already. The angmohs will not continue worship you as wish. When you are in their homeland, reality will sink in, and life will be just like everywhere else in the world. You will worry about money, kids, in-laws, and work. Take it from someone who has lived on both sides of the world. I am not saying angmohs are a bad catch. I am saying, don't go for the angmohs for the wrong reasons. Finally, what is wrong with mixed marriages, Gilbert? I have a mixed marriage, and my child is mixed. Like Alex said, we are not a monolithtic entity.
DeleteWell Di, this trend of increased cross-cultural relationships is a result of better education & technology - and that is a good thing. A generation ago, our parents would be far less confident about making friends, doing business, etc with people from another country - but our better educated younger generation have had the benefit of a much better education to give them the confidence to do so. There's nothing bad about it - you're just reaping the rewards of a better educated, more confident generation of Singaporeans. If people like Gilbert see that as a social malaise, then oh dear, he is really falling on the wrong side of the generation gap.
DeletePS. Dress up... you'll be impressed with the way I am dressed today Di. I'm in a blue 3 pc suit, pin collar shirt, cream and pale blue tie... and Swarovski crystal cuff links. There's a touch of timeless class to it but still very this season. But then again, I'm so much more hiao (vain) than your average Singaporean man.
Yes, this cross-cultural trend is a good thing indeed. Imagine going back to the 1970s and even 80s when mixed couples were gawked at.
DeleteAlex --- you made me choked on my lunch when you described what you were wearing, LOL! I love your vainity, I don't know what a pin collar is, but the Swarovski crystal cuff links .... super vain and super styling! Love it. Singaporean men --- take fashsion notes from this fashionista! Keep it up. Thanks for making me smile. I was really pissed off this morning because I had to wake up early to drive my son to an early sports practice before i got to work. Been really grouchy. This blog got me going through the day. Two more hours, and I am going to balek rumah to take a nap.
And here's the thing - I was all dressed up with no where to go! I had all my meetings today cancelled because a huge storm last night (160 km/hr winds) felled many trees that totally screwed up the trains this morning, so all my client meetings were cancelled as my boss couldn't get into town by train (whilst the emergency services worked all day to clear away those felled trees). A pin collar is one of those little details which add a touch of class and personality to a shirt: http://www.julesb.co.uk/menswear-1/pin-collar-shirt-720105-656175_image.jpg understated classiness.
DeleteAs for Singaporean men, let's be fair lah. It's currently 10 degrees out there and I can dress up nicely. How do you expect Singaporean men to accessorize when it is 32 degrees?
Well lucky you. I am praying for snow ins this year just to get extra days off. Yah lah, the Ah Bengs will be sweating like hogs in 3pc suits. They can still look good in crisp white shirts and dtess pants and dress shoes. No short-sleeved shirts, please! They will look like gahment servants. Or worsr, like PAP peons. Heehee!
DeleteI think it does go beyond the weather (although it is a huge factor in tropical Singapore) - I have seen how the way there is this sense of conformity in Singapore where people just don't have the guts to be different, if the boss dresses a certain way then he sets the tone for the company and you fall in line and conform: that means dressing like the boss. Whereas in the UK, I think people are more free to express their individuality at work through their clothes.
DeleteI looked up the pin collar and SUPER love it! What a lovely detail. What do you think of monograms, and where? Pocket, collar, or cuffs?
DeleteI looked up the pin collar and SUPER love it! What a lovely detail. What do you think of monograms, and where? Pocket, collar, or cuffs?
DeleteI think that monograms are hardly noticed and thus people don't really bother with them to be honest ...
DeleteDouble cuff, cutaway spread collar and nothing else. Keep it simple.
DeleteI have a couple of Singaporean female friends who I actually feel quite sorry for as they feel trapped. They are both about 30, highly educated, gorgeous and single. I have asked them seperately if they are planning to get married, settle down and have kids. Without hesitation they both said "no". I found this really odd so asked why, Both gave the same answers that a) they were not attracted to Singaporean men for the same reasons given above by Di, and b) they could not marry an ang moh because their parent's would freak.
DeleteTrue, this is only a survey of 2 but I have asked friends in the UK similar questions over the years and never had such replies.
As for the matter of ang mohs on fancy expat packages - this does not really happen much these days and seems to be a self perpetuating myth. I have been in Singapore for nearly 4 years and have lots of expat aquantances and as far as I can work out only one person I know is on such a package. All of us are on local packages. This sort of thing may have gone on but it is rare today because companies can pick and chose.
Hello Jason, thanks for your message. Your sample size may be small but you certainly did hit the nail on the head. I do wonder though, about those who would hold back because of the fear of parental disappoval - I find that hard to understand because I would always take the decision to do what I want and then show my parents that I am okay and happy as a result of my decision to prove that it was the right decision and by that token, I have enough trust from my parents to do what I want (not that they have the power to stop me anyway). But like I said, I recognize that there are people in Singapore who do think like that and it puzzles me that they would put their parents' approval ahead of their own happiness - crikey.
DeleteHeh. See hor, this is why even though you're a bit of a cock some times (e.g. On NS), I think in general your head is screwed on very tightly.
ReplyDeleteAgree with your screed. Because fundamentally, life is what you make of it.
But doesn't that apply to NS as well? This two year deficit in working life - it can be overcome. Hell, I did it, and started work at 22, same as my US college peers, even after serving 30 months of NS.
Well Huichun, I always invite people to disagree with me, even criticize me if they don't like what I say - but I draw the line at slander or telling me to 'shut up' - so please, if you disagree with me on any issue, I kindly invite you to debate them with me. :)
DeleteYes, we agree that life is what we make of it.
Pls lah, in no way am I either a) slandering you or b) asking you to shut up. It would be a sad day if everybody agreed with everyone else on everything. Free Internet etc, and even if I disagree with you, I respect your right (and ability) to express your views.
DeleteI could be less abrasive though, so I will.
As for debating, I'll comment where I can. E.g. This topic.
No lah, I wasn't referring to you in particular - you're one of the respectable ones who knows how to disagree with me and engage me in a debate to present an alternative POV in a decent manner. I have no issue with you, but I have been subjected to slander and calls of "shut up" by others (mostly on the forums), but that's another story for another day. You're more than welcome to leave your comments and share your thoughts here, thank you :)
DeleteIn this system , failure to make it to University is dependent on your performance in your early teenager life. How much responsibility should a child bear when all the adults in his life fail him? U ARE DREAMING IF U THINK U LIVE IN A MERITOCRACY. THOSE FROM RICHER FAMILIES CAN PURCHASE TUITION AND ASSESSMENT BOOKs for their child,.I know a person who made it into JC but dare not continue because he was weak in mathematics and cannot afford tuition or assessment books was it his fault ? LOOK ME IN THE EYE AND TELL ME ITS HIS FAULT FOR BEING POOR. Further his teachers refuse to give him extra lessons,claiming that they have no time. Those teachers are probably lazy or busy teaching private tuition. WAS IT HIS FAULT THAT MOE EMPLOY SUCH PEOPLE? Of course you could call him negative thinking etc. Yes that is true at that time because of his family circumstance. HIS FAMILY UNDERWENT A BITTER Divorce, that left his mother in depression, hereby affecting his self confidence and making him depressed. Furthermore, as his father before the divorce, left to work overseas, he grew up in a one parent family without sufficient social skills or even pocket money. He skipped recess everyday for 10 years and at times was chased by school teachers because he did not have money to pay school fees. WAS THAT HIS FAULT FOR BECOMING NEGATIVE IN THINKING? LOOK ME N THE EYE AND SAY IT IS. Why wasn't even basic compulsory counseling services offered to him when he was a teenager despite studies showing that divorced kids suffer from many issues. Underspending on social services
ReplyDeleteWell Julie, we're not talking about Gilbert here are we? Gilbert was making a statement about Singaporean men - whatever Gilbert went through, I sympathize (of course), but we take what we're given in life and we have to make the best of it. Is this about Gilbert or is this about Singaporean men in general? Whatever attitude Gilbert wishes to adopt about his childhood and upbringing is for him to decide for himself - but he made a fundamental mistake by generalizing the situation with all of Singaporean men and women - many of whom do not recognize the stereotypes that he presented.
DeleteThis is not about Gilbert's childhood - this is about him making assumptions about others who are not at all like him and not recognizing that others have different attitudes, perspectives and experiences.
No, we are not talking about Gilbert. I am taking issue with this statement "We live in a meritocratic society - those who work hard will get ahead in life" and citing my friend case in point that a lot of things are beyond our control..And many who got ahead in life are simply more fortunate in terms of access to tuition, books, pocket money, than my friend, who is smarter than them. This society is neither fair nor meritocractic. Perhaps in alot of case, its the merit of our family and not the individuals that counts
DeleteWell Julie, we do indeed live in a meritocratic society but you need to think about what that means. It doesn't mean that everyone has exactly the same chances in life and the same opportunities available - some of us have rich parents, others don't, some of us have the odds stacked against us, others have the odds in favour of us. Living with meritocracy merely means that those who do work really hard can struggle against the odds and make it (rather than have no hope at all no matter how hard they try). Your friend has the odds stacked against him - that's unfortunate of course, but it doesn't change the fact that he still lives in a meritocratic society.
DeleteThink about it - life isn't fair to begin with. I remember how in my primary one class, some kids were super brilliant and others can't even handle simple mathematics like 1 + 2 = 3 It wasn't that the brilliant kids had super rich parents who paid for good tuition teachers, no - some kids were simply smarter than others, they were born with the ability, the IQ, the talent and were simply lucky to have that advantage in their brain. It was bestowed upon them by fate, rather than acquired through expensive tuition teachers.
I did spend a lot of time doing sports when I was younger - in sports, there is only so much your money can buy you if you simply are not born with the natural talent/ability for the sport. The great Olympic champions are those who have the natural talent + the opportunity to train with a good coach and enjoy great facilities to realize their true potential. But without this natural talent, money is no substitute for producing a champion.
So there you go Julie - life is not fair. Whose fault is that?
Read the Meritocracy Myth. http://www.ncsociology.org/sociationtoday/v21/merit.htm Well in theory ancient China also has social mobility. No one is going to stop you from taking their imperial examinations. If a society gives you about one per cent chance of getting ahead does that make it a Meritocractic society? What I resent the most is that many people use this Meritocracy Myth to put others down, to assume that if you do not make it, you deserve it. They don't acknowledge that their family is responsible for some 50 per cent of their success and look down on the less fortunate who did not have the same resources or stability needed to succeed in early school life as them. And while money and tuition could not produce a champion scholar, it certainly, when properly applied, could help you achieve better grades and access to University and a better life.
DeleteHi Julie and thanks for your comment. Ironically, I don't disagree with you on the issue of meritocracy, but the bottom line is a meritocratic society isn't a fair society per se, the two issues are not the same. Sure, we both know life is unfair, the odds are stacked against some people if they are born into the wrong family (I have talked about this on my blog before http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/q-are-there-second-class-citizens-in-uk.html and we both fundamentally agree that life isn't fair, no way, not by a long way.
DeleteBut then again, just because life isn't fair doesn't mean that our society isn't meritocratic.
The two words mean quite different things, so you can have a massively UNFAIR meritocratic society.
There you go.
Calm down bro what's all this mudslinging? Gilbert is only pointing out the disparity between the genders that leads to the social behavior we are now seeing. TFR is declining rapidly and foreign marriage is on the rise, whilst indeed there is a certain group of men faces this and women going for foreign options, it is only a malaise that Gilbert is trying to emphasize. I believe the discrimination in workplace due to NS/reservist/RT commitment is highly responsible for this outcome and impinges the current sociology. There is really no need to respond in a belligerent way. Cheers.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comment. Well, mudslinging is a part of social media I'm afraid - I don't mind if people disagree with me or criticize me, but if you do put something out there in the form of a blog post, then people will respond and if you're afraid of people not liking what you write, then the only way to avoid that is to not blog at all.
DeleteMy gripe with Gilbert is that he is refusing to embrace the change that is happening to social patterns in Singapore in terms of the way we forge our cultural identities and the impact it has on the way we find love. On one had, yes the government and the increase in the number of FTs on the ground in Singapore is a factor - but the far more crucial factor is the impact of internet and the way we access media.
Is this a malaise? Let me illustrate to you what this means in practce: back in around 1989/1990, my dad and I were walking through a carpark when an American stopped us to ask us for directions. My dad panicked when he didn't understand the Angmoh and just said sorry and tried to walk away quickly. I had the presence of mind to calmly give the American the directions he needed (for crying out aloud, the guy was lost and just needed directions). Fast forward to yesterday, when I presented my app at a hackathon - doing a multi-lingual presentation in French, Spanish, Welsh and English to a huge crowd for an app that encourages people to do learn foreign languages. Would my dad have the nerve to even stand in front of a small group of Angmohs and do a short speech in English? No, he would have run a mile away - the same way he ran away from that American in the carpark.
Better education opportunities and better technology have had many positive impacts on our lives and I have benefited greatly from all of the above - but one such impact of better education & technology is our increased confidence in dealing with a global audience and thus increasing the possibility of younger Singaporeans settling down with someone from another country. That, IMHO, is a good thing, it is a positive aspect to be celebrated, not something to be treated like a malaise.
As for discrimination in the work place and NS/reservist stuff, that's another argument for another day - but I fail to see the way it impacts on the way Singaporean men find love.
Yes, I don't see the NS relevance here. It's about what many local women prefer in terms of dating/marriage partners, and the fact that local men like Gilbert find themselves "losing out" to the angmohs. Alex, I see your point that the men have to take responsilbilty for themselves. Stop whining and do something about what is not working out. It is a global village now, so the internationalism of lifetstyle is more pervasive than ever. Acccept it. Besides, like I have said before, there must be plenty of local women out there still.
DeleteI agree with Di - NS is not relevant to the issue of finding love in Singapore. There is a whole other debate to be had about NS, but to try to drag it into the discussion of finding love/partners in Singapore is just a red herring. You can't blame everything on NS.
DeleteUnfortunately, I believe that Gilbert Goh has played the blame game a lot in many of his blog entries, and turned away some people from him, including readers who are sympathetic to his good intentions if not his ideas and rhetoric which is wrongheaded. For example, when the numerous cases of "sex-for-grades" and "sex-for-promotion" corruption were unearthed and brought to light by the media, Gilbert Goh then went on writing his blog entry, blaming Singaporean wives and women for not being able to keep their husbands because they gained weight after marriage and did not look after their looks. Then when City Harvest Church was investigated for the financial misdeeds of Kong Hee and company, he went onto this far-fetched conspiracy theory that the PAP government is trying to rein in the church because it has too much money and can constitute a threat to the PAP government with its members' undying devotion to their leader.....you cannot even blame the PAP for corruption within institutions and also as practised by individuals, since the PAP is by default a rather messed up party to begin with, owing to its principle of 'the higher the pay, the more morally clean the person's character will be'. They just do not add up. That is the main problem with Gilbert Goh's arguments (if there is any, considering his absent style or line of thought), because he tends to mesh up everything and then create a whole new conclusion which is not related, red herring or what not.
DeleteI think it's stupid this is even an issue at all. Tell me when is marrying 'within' the local pool a good idea for any species? Hello? We should in fact be praising inter-racial, inter-nationality marriages. This is the ideal. Do y'all want to be inbred fools? Obviously we know this intrinsically (hence the trends).
ReplyDeleteYes, it is way tougher for Singaporean boys than girls. Actually, it's way tougher for Asian men in general. See: http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/
"White women prefer white men to the exclusion of everyone else—and Asian and Hispanic women prefer them even more exclusively."
WHOA. Would you look at that. Maybe Singaporean women liked white men before the floodgates opened to 'foreign talent'. Back then, there was just none of em' around to screw with. Our tastes haven't changed, the situation has. I'm not saying 100% Singaporean women favour foreigners - possibly in any population (this is my hack social science theory based on no evidence) half of the people are domestic and half are international minded -it's probably more since humans are a migratory species. In the past, being international minded (i.e. favouring marrying 'out') was difficult, it is now easier, so things are trending this way because the limits are removed, not because the people have changed. It was always in us, we were simply too scared/ opportunities not available.
Hi Isabella. Thanks for your comment. You and I are in complete agreement here on the issue of cross-cultural marriage. At the end of the day, if 2 people are happy, I say, let's just wish them all the best for every happiness, after all, so many marriages do fail - including those where both partners are from the same culture.
DeleteThe fact is, some people are simply in a better position to deal with people from different cultures than others. Your ability to cope depends on your knowledge of the other person's culture and languages - I talked a lot about this in my vlog: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/lift-vlog-episode-10-mind-gap-bridging.html
As for Asian men, I don't like to generalize, I say, let's just each person as an individual. I would say that there are certain characteristics about a person that makes me find them attractive - I really like people who take care of themselves and take pride in their appearances. You may find it weird that I value vanity so highly, but then again, I am that vain myself, I would hate to be with someone who thinks I'm just shallow and superficial to care so much about clothes and my looks. Oh I could give you a long list of things that I find attractive in a person - but these are characteristics that are not race/ethnic specific, it's more like "a good listener", "ambitious" and "good sense of humour".
But that's just me. I can see things also in the Singaporean context.
I have a friend from JC who secretly dated an Indian guy for a while and she had to break it off as she thought her Chinese parents would never accept an Indian son-in-law and I'm like, "they're racist and they're wrong" and she replied, "I know, I hate the way they are but they're my parents - what can I do?"
So she married a Chinese man whom she thought her parents would approve of, had a kid and is now trapped in a miserable marriage that she resents and hates. Duh. Whose fault is that?
Hi Limpeh,
ReplyDeleteI disagree with some of the points you have raised in this article and I will proceed to identify some areas of disagreement.
"There are men who are single and do not settle down in any country in the world, not just Singapore - why should we assume that every single adult must get married and have children by a certain age? Some people do and others don't - and for those who don't, there could be a range of factors. Maybe they just haven't met the right person yet, maybe they refuse to compromise and settle for second best, maybe they are just not prepared or ready to have a family. But to blame one's financial situation for not being able to find love is just so incredibly wrong on so many levels."
According to www.singstat.gov.sg (2012 data), approximately 37.6% (men: 30-34), 25% (women: 30-34) are single. Hence approximately 30% of the Sg population remains single up to 35. This singlehood trend has increased over the years and is possibly "detrimental" from a macro standpoint because it leads to low TFR and a smaller Sgean core. More importantly when I talk to my friends living in Sg, I quickly realize that while many of my male friends actually want to get married, it's tough to afford a HDB flat (& maybe a car) in mid-20s. Maybe it's Asian culture, but not having the financial capacity to purchase a house is probably a contributing factor to not being able to getting married and starting a family, additionally there's also the common belief that "men should be the breadwinners" among Sgeans (especially parents). Certainly many of my friends that managed to marry early had parental support (i.e. cold hard cash) to purchase their apartments. Hence I believe that financial situation does play an important role in being able to find love and get married. The point is that the financial situation of the bottom ~20% (& possibly the middle class) has deteriorated and this has affected their ability to start families/find love etc.
"Life isn't fair. What were you expecting Gilbert? For everyone to make it to university and become rich?"
I think that Gilbert was trying to point out that life isn't fair in his article. He pointed out that males with poorer education/career etc where less attractive (which is true in general). Singapore has one of the highest GDP per capita in the world, perhaps his point was to state that much more people should be doing well and there should be more room for society to send more people to university and ensure aspirations are met? Instead inequality has continued to rise (Gini rose from 0.448 in 2011 to 0.459 in 2012).
"I really hate the way Gilbert just plays the victim's card on behalf of Singaporean men - yeah yeah, he is always blaming someone else."
I've read his article (only via the link you provided) and I did not see blatant blaming of either party? Basically the article just states that in Sg less educated men are less attractive, women like angmohs (I disagree since this is an overgeneralization but I'm sure that there's a significant proportion ), 40% of marriages involve a foreign spouse (according to singstat it was 39.4% in 2011). And it's probably true in general that no girl (Sgean or otherwise) will date a guy that can't feed himself as stated in the article. In summary the article states that due to complex socioeconomic factors in Sg there are more inter-ethnic marriages (which is true, although not clearly stated). Finally a large sub-population that wants to get married but can't is possibly not ideal.
Hello Zeo, thank you for your comment. I always welcome comments like yours - I never expect everyone to agree with me and I am always very happy when they respond like the way you did. Allow me to respond to the points you have raised.
Delete1. The raise in the rate of singlehood for men can be explained in part by the much longer time they choose to spend in education. Add 2 years of NS to that mix and they could only start working in their mid to late 20s: imagine if someone say went to poly then university, then chose to undertake a year or two of specialist training: you do the sums. Men in Singapore are unlikely to get married and start a family whilst still in education (unless they have rich parents, as you have quite rightly pointed out) - this desire to become more highly educated means that men (and women indeed) are postponing wedding plans until they have not just completed their education, but have become financially stable to move out, get a flat, start a family etc. So as for the bottom ~20%, yes it has always been tough being at the bottom of the pecking order - in the UK, you have all kinds of social welfare to help those who are in that social category: for example, there's all manners of housing support to help poor people pay the rent (yes including those who are in lowly paid jobs, not just the unemployed, those working for peanuts do get welfare handouts as well) - so is that the alternative one wants for Singapore? After all, that has been done before - it's more realistic to ask the government to help the poor more, rather than just point the finger at Singaporean women, accusing them of being vain and materialistic, for that is not fair on them.
2. As for point 2, allow me to point out that you Zeo made the point that, "perhaps his point was to state that much more people should be doing well and there should be more room for society to send more people to university and ensure aspirations are met?" That's YOUR point and a very valid point indeed, Gilbert didn't say that, you did. And I agree with you. Gilbert said what he said and you're trying too hard to read between the lines. I hate to be cruel, but Gilbert isn't as eloquent as you and doesn't know how to express himself as well as you do so you're trying to put words in his mouth.
3. Again, as for my previous point, Zeo, you have very eloquently summarized the situation in a way that Gilbert didn't. Gilbert drew a correlation between SG women liking angmohs and the local men being unable to get married, when really, the two points are not closely related at best. But as explained in my article, this is a side effect of closing the gap between the genders in terms of education and what would you rather have? Old fashioned sexism suppressing the aspirations and achievements of SG women? It's one or the other and what we have is the lesser of two evils. It's not ideal but you can't have your cake & eat it (or as one says in French, you can't have butter and the money for the butter.)
1. I believe that this actually supports the point that financial concerns make it harder to find love and get married. For example in the previous generation, to be middle class, the average person did not have to study/work as much today. However due to the present more competitive environment, to achieve the same middle class aspirations in Sg (apartment, car, dining etc), people have to study/work much harder in higher skill roles. This basically means that although people in Sg now have to work harder, their purchasing power has actually decreased (i.e. financial concerns). When this occurs for one individual perhaps you could say he/she was lazy, however if it occurs to a significant proportion of society & the working class, this is a symptom of complex underlying societal issues which is beyond the power of an individual to overcome (i.e. cycle of poverty theory etc).
DeleteNS is basically a two year, 100% income tax that exacerbates financial issues. The tax is worth 2 years of your lifetime peak income. Why? Because basically with NS, all Sg men lose 2 years of prime life and are disadvantaged throughout their career. Personally even if I don't get a salary increment for the rest of my life, this amount alone is sufficient to purchase a house or half a dozen Porsches in the States. Certainly I would have had more time for love if I was more financially stable.
I'm not saying that life is tough, I'm saying that life is getting tougher (which is very different)! Life for the bottom 20% has gotten worse compared to the previous generation. Real wages for the bottom 20% along with their share of the economic pie in Sg have decreased. In contrast, the top 10% are capturing an increasing share. This data is supported by the worsening Gini coefficient, govt wage data etc. Worse still (although there's no official source/proof), the nominal salaries of sg university grads seem to have stagnated (salary.sg, graduate wage reports) over the past 5-10 yrs or so. This means that real wages for graduates (supposedly the top 23% of their cohort) have also declined due to Sg's relatively high inflation especially in housing and cars! In light of this, I propose that financial concerns is a major and central factor in limiting opportunities to find love and settling down. After all if everyone is busy trying to make ends meet, love becomes a luxury (indeed recent surveys indicated that sgeans work one of the longest hours in Asia). Hence I conclude that financial concerns as pointed out by Gilbert is a key roadblock in the journey to finding love.
About Sgean women, I agree that not all are vain and materialistic. After all Sg women are a broad demographic and surely a wide spectrum of varying characters exist. However from personal experience and conversations with male friends/expats, I would lead towards the stand that an average Sg women has more unrealistic expectations than women from other countries. I've dated girls from various countries in Asia & North America, met highly intelligent women from Harvard, Cambridge etc. In these relationships I'm treated like a true equal and often pleasantly surprised when the other party will offer to buy me dinner or drive me home. Let's just say that the Sg girls I've gone out with aren't like that, often it's hard just trying to get them to look away from their iphone. Oh well that's just personal experience, I'm sure there are good Sg girls too.
2. I quote Gilbert's article " A few of my male friends are still single and though they are looking it's tough to see them getting hitched anytime soon. Many of them are struggling with dead-end jobs and a few are daily-rated with no clear light at the end of the dark tunnel." Basically this indicates an understanding that some people who don't do well have a tough time finding love. I'm sure Gilbert understands that "life isn't fair", after all it isn't "fair" that people who are poorer have a tougher time finding love etc. Basically I think that the 1st 30% of his article is dedicated complaining about the unfairness of life. Since unfairness has been identified, it's obvious that Gilbert would prefer to see it mitigated.
Delete3. It's just opinion but I prefer to give him the benefit of doubt here. I think Gilbert was trying to say that "Sg men marry foreign women" & "Sg women date foreign men". I don't think he said that "Sg men find it harder to get married", the point was more like "lower educated Sg men can't find Sg women and tend to marry foreign women instead" (which is true statistically). No that's an oversimplification of the issue, an alternative scenario exists where both men and women can pursue their aspirations and find love (yes in this situation, I can have the cake and eat it too). Just look at Finland or Norway for example.
Dear Zeo,
DeleteI don't quite know where you're going with this, but since you took the time to write, I shall afford to courtesy of a response.
1. Yes Singapore is evolving and changing, this generation faces different challenges compared to their parents.
So ....?
The whole world is changing because of the advent of technology.
So....? What is your point?
We can't push the pause button and keep things exactly the same as they were - we have to learn to evolve with these changes, adapt ourselves to the new challenges that this new age will bring and some people will do better than others. So ...? So the bottom 20% will find it tough - how's that any different from back in the 1980s or 1970s when those at the bottom of the pecking order also found it tough? So what is the point then - a plea for sympathy for those at the bottom of the pecking order? Where are you going with this? You and I don't fundamentally agree with the fact that is tough being at the bottom of the hierarchy, at the bottom of the pecking order ..... so?
2. Who is Gilbert expecting to mitigate the inherent unfairness of life then? God? The government? Society? Whom? I would rather take my fate in my own hands, to try to do whatever I can to influence the outcome of the events in my life, rather than look to a third party and say, "I am so ke lian, please help me." I rather rely on myself than charity. Sorry, I'm just being pragmatic, I prefer to rely on myself than the charity of others.
3. You're giving Gilbert the benefit of the doubt, I'm not. Feel free to express YOUR opinion on the issue, but don't put words in his mouth or try to interpret what he is saying to me - gosh, it's not like he is speaking in something like Malay or Cantonese and you're translating it to English for me...
I was trying to bring up separate points in each paragraph, but I guess it’s too complex so I’ll try to be more concise this time at the expense of being comprehensive.
Delete1. My point is that things are tough and getting tougher for the bottom 20% compared to the 1980s-1990s etc. It’s becoming even harder to break out of the underclass. So? Society/Govt has to implement policies to reverse this trend before it leads to greater social/national issues.
2. The government/society should design policies to mitigate unfairness instead of implementing policies that exacerbate it. You were born talented, not everyone has the luxury of depending on themselves, is this really so hard to comprehend?
3. I’m trying to point out that there’s a solution to the issues both you and Gilbert raised. Men and women can both pursue their aspirations and find love. Solutions exist for resolving both issues.
4. See points 1-3.
5. Simple, because these ongoing changes have exacerbated inequality and promoted elitism. I'm surprised that Social Darwinism seems to be making a comeback in the upper middle class of society. Maybe being "successful" or "educated" isn't well correlated with an ability to identify naturalistic fallacies?
In conclusion, Gilbert's article may have flaws but it identifies some valid issues. Your response has valid points but its conclusion isn't inevitable. We can still solve these issues and maintain progress if more thought is put into policy design.
OK allow me to deal with this point by point please.
Delete1. If you want to preach that a more compassionate stance needs to be established to help the bottom 20%, then you should look towards other countries and see what they have done there. For example, in the UK, the government is far more generous towards those at the bottom of the pecking order in terms of handing out welfare benefits to help them pay their bills and improve themselves. Does it work? Not really! Far from me to defend the PAP's stance on the issue, but the bottom line is that there is no miracle cure, no simple fix for situations like that. It will take me too long to explain the failures of the welfare state in the UK and how it is failing the very people it is trying to help, but the bottom line is that you need to help these people improve themselves rather than just put money in their hands the way the UK government has done and it is a complex problem indeed to solve - no government has managed to come up with a perfect solution so far and it is easy to say "implement policies to reverse this trend" but the UK has tried so hard over the last 5 to 6 decades by using the Welfare State and it's been an expensive and dismal failure to say the least - so please don't be so hard on the PAP for nobody has the right answer so far.
2. Well don't get emotional about it - let's talk about it in practical terms. This needs to translate to better skills training, better education, bridging the gap between what kids learn at school and giving them the necessary skills to get meaningful paid employment. We also need to help the adults who left school without having had adequate training and help them improve their skills - that is something we can all agree on and that is down to the government to act on these issues. No amount of compassion or sympathy on my part is going to make the slightest bit of difference, even if I cried you a bucket of tears.
3. I agree that everyone can pursue their aspirations and try to find love - a lot of this boils down to the individual finding what is right for him/her.
5. Who knows, maybe.
6. Yes it is admirable that you think we should try to find solutions - I just want to point out that you've yet to suggest workable solutions that would fix everything... probably because there simply are not any simple solutions to the issues we've discussed here.
1. Using the UK as proof that govt/social policies cannot resolve the issue is a hasty generalization. Several other countries like Finland and Norway have had more success in maintaining an equitable society. Ever heard of the Nirvana fallacy? Yeah sure nothing is perfect in this world, but it doesn’t mean that you should give up and just say that it’s an inevitable consequence of progress? Doesn’t that sound like the defeatist attitude you have decried?
DeleteUsing the same fallacies in the early 1900s, I could basically tell the Wright brothers that “it’s impossible to build a plane, flying is a complex problem, and nobody has managed to come up with a perfect solution”. Yet look at all the “imperfect solutions” we have flying around today?
2. I’m trying to demonstrate the satire resonating throughout your article. Yes it is unfair to generalize and blame Sg women for being materialistic. However isn’t it even more unfair to generalize and blame the poor for being lazy, defeatist, less intelligent or just plain unlucky? Why the strong reaction against one and not the other?
3. The govt can design social policies that ensure more people can both fulfill their aspirations and find love.
5. So do you support Social Darwinism and elitism?
6. Jeez didn’t I say I was trying to be concise? This is just an “Argument From Ignorance” fallacy. As you know, any such solution would involve months of research, consultation of experts in the field, testing, gradual implementation etc. Seriously the description of a comprehensive workable solution would be a 100+ page document that is beyond the scope of this discussion.
Even if there aren’t simple solutions, it doesn’t mean we should all just be defeatist, say that it’s impossible, or that the current situation is an inevitable side effect of progress and achieving aspirations? Gosh if mankind gave up just because there weren’t “simple solutions”, we’ll probably still be hiding in a cave somewhere right now because “there ain’t no simple solution to avoiding that tiger out there mate!”
Finally even if I’m unable to come up with a workable solution, my point that workable solutions exist still stands. If I walk into Pierre Herme and get cracked macarons, I don’t have to show the pastry chef how to bake a macaron to tell him that he has given me a cracked macaron. That’s his job, not mine.
1. I'm not saying that one shouldn't try to find a solution - I'm just asking you politely to avoid the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" fallacy.
Delete2. Gilbert did come across as sexist and out of touch with society - feel free to disagree if you wish.
3. Good luck to the SG government in that aspect.
5. I believe in meritocracy.
6. See point 1 above ref the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.
"Why is he assuming that Singaporean men can't bloody speak English properly? Maybe men of his generation (he's about 10 - 15 years old than me) have a stronger accent, but most of my peers from VJC actually don't speak English with much of an accent at all - we tend to speak a very international brand of English (and yes, we do get the TH right). And if you can't bloody speak English properly, then whose fault is it?"
ReplyDeleteVJC isn't representative of the general Sg population, especially the "less educated" population Gilbert was trying to describe. I'm educated in the States but it's still clear to my better traveled peers here that my accent is "Singaporean". Additionally my English may be good by Sgean standards, but over here I'm just average. In the end we may speak English, but the general population definitely doesn't have either the overall command of language or a Western accent like the expats who work in Sg. Over time, this leads to a misconception that Westerners speak more proper English that Sgeans (which is partly true). I would attribute fault partly to the individual, and partly to the environment/education. After all I hardly see many well educated Americans or Sgeans speaking bad English.
"The thing that disturbs me most (and offends me most) about Gilbert's attitude is this, in his own words, "The only problem is they are not choosing it from their own local pool!" Why oh why is he so fixated with Singaporeans marrying other Singaporeans "from their own local pool"? After all, haven't our ancestors come from different parts of China, Malaysia, Indonesia, India and further afield?"
Currently approximately 40% of new marriages involve a foreign spouse. I'm not sure about other countries, but certainly 40% does seem a little on the high side. It might not be "wrong" per se but it does lead to the question of why there's such a huge disparity compared to other countries. Do Sgeans inherently dislike each other? Why are Sgeans more attracted to people from other countries? Will this lead to an erosion of national identity? Will it result in unexpected social problems on a national level? Stating that our ancestors come from various countries is Cherry Picking and isn't a sufficient explanation and doesn't mean that it's "right". After all, the Europeans all came from Africa at one point but I doubt 40% of European marriages are international.
Onto your next points:
Delete1. English: my point is simple. The ability to speak English and express oneself eloquently in English is a skill that you learn like any other skill. If you study hard and make an effort, you will be better at it - it is the same as any other skill set by that token (playing the guitar, driving, doing mathematics, playing a computer game etc) Sure the people who made it to VJC probably represent a cohort of Singaporeans who are far more educated than your average Singaporean, but that's my point - the people who made it to VJC are ordinary Singaporean folks from places like Ang Mo Kio (such as yours truly) and we've made it where we are simply by working hard and studying the English language. I totally disagree with the way that Gilbert admits defeat before even fighting the battle with the English language - not all Singaporeans struggle with the English language and it is something you have to work hard on, like all things in life, if you want to excel in it. By the same token, you will find Brits/Americans who are uneducated and struggle with the English language as well. It isn't anything to do with one's skin colour, but everything to do with how hard one works, whether you are black, white or Asian. By that token, we can take control of the situation by simply working hard - something Gilbert does not seem to want to admit.
3. As for the 40% of marriage with foreigners, you cannot compare Singapore to say France or Germany because the geography of these countries are just so different. You're better off comparing Singapore to other small countries with a big expatriate population - and there are few like Singapore. Singapore is unique by that token. How can you compare Singapore to big countries with relatively small expatriate populations? What we're looking at is merely cause & effect: you let in and foster a big expatriate population, what do you think is going to happen? It's not that Singaporeans inherently dislike each other - it's just that Singaporeans are not averse to the idea of marrying someone from another race/culture/nation. I grew up playing in the playground with Malay, Chinese, Indian and Eurasian friends in Singapore, it was a very multi-cultural, multi-lingual, multi-ethnic childhood I had and that played a big part in making me so open minded on this issue (marrying a foreigner) - is that a bad thing? I say it is a great thing and it's merely cause & effect. It is all part of growing up in Singapore - and it is not all bad news, really.
4. English: my point is simple too. Yes the ability to speak English is and express oneself eloquently is a skill that you learn like any other skill. If you study hard and make an effort, you will be better at it. However, not everyone is born with the same ability to acquire skills (i.e. your intelligence curve posts), not everyone is born in an environment conducive to acquiring good English skills (i.e. your nephew), not everyone has the time to perfect their English (e.g. what if you were barely making ends meet and had to work two menial jobs?). Hence I disagree that individuals who made it to VJC made it by simply working hard. Yes hard work was important, but how about the nurturing environment most VJC students grew up in (i.e. relatively educated parents, functional family unit, no major financial worries etc), how about innate ability? I find it surprising inconsistent when you point to the intelligence curve to explain why society is stratified, and then state that anyone could have acquired English skills simply through hard work. Some people just don't have the ability, time, environment etc to make it. Is it surprising that some people admit defeat when they realize that their English will never improve to the VJC level? I like to pick fights I can win too, if I realize I'm going to suck at something, I go find something else where I excel in and basically "patch my weakness" and just ensure it doesn't become a deal-breaker. In conclusion it's definitely too much to expect everyone in Sg to speak perfect English, not everyone was born with your linguistic talents, time or environment.
Delete5. Here you are relying on "Special pleading" and the "No true Scotsman" fallacy to justify the current Sg situation. Using the same fallacy I could basically say "There's no country like North Korea, they have a God for a leader, hence N.K. is justified in building nuclear weapons and destroying the USA". Clearly this premise can't stand without further justification and examples? Surely every country is unique in some manner? The "cause & effect" you mentioned possibly accelerates the issues I mentioned previously (Will this lead to an erosion of national identity? Will it result in unexpected social problems on a national level?) Is that a bad thing? On the individual level possibly not, but how about on a national level? It's well and good to think about self-interest, but if nobody thinks about national interests, the viability of the country might be affected. Does that matter? I guess it does depend on the individual in the end doesn't it? But isn't it sad if a country's citizens did not have loyalty, identity, or commitment to the country? Why not just establish Singapore Inc. then? At least I'll now get dividends!
4. OK so life in unfair, damn life is cruel. I think we've established that already and are in agreement on that point. Your point being?
Delete5. On the point of national identity - it will evolve and grow as Singapore continues to mature and change as a nation over the years, you cannot say "this is our nationality identity and it will never change" - loads of countries from Japan to Germany to Russia have constantly had to re-evaluate their national identities in the context of where they stand in this day and age, what role they play on the regional and world stage - so why are you so worried about Singapore going through exactly the same process? Why are you so afraid of change and most importantly, why do you have so little confidence in this change than (which may be for the better)? Why the pessimism?